Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan and Navani began their scholarly collaboration, while Kaladin began to take small steps back toward Honor. This week, Shallan gives Dalinar some truth and some defiance, and Parshendi are encountered.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 78: Contradictions
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: The Shattered Plains
Symbology: Pattern, Ishar, Shalash
IN WHICH Shallan watches the rain while her soldiers watch her; she and Pattern consider and discuss creationspren, art, and lies; Dalinar enters and speaks with her about Jasnah; the time has come to reveal her Surgebinding; Dalinar is awed and encouraged; they are interrupted by news of a Parshendi sighting; Shallan refuses to be told what to do; the dead Parshendi is a new form… and has red eyes; another Parshendi arrives; he is recognized by Bridge Four as their former parshman Shen, and he is here to surrender.
Quote of the Week
“Brightlord Dalinar?” Shallan said. “What if your task wasn’t to refound the Knights Radiant?”
“That is what I just said,” Dalinar replied.
“What if instead, your task was to gather them?”
He looked back to her, waiting. Shallan felt a cold sweat. What was she doing?
I have to tell someone sometime, she thought. I can’t do as Jasnah did, holding it all. This is too important. Was Dalinar Kholin the right person? Well, she certainly couldn’t think of anyone better.
Shallan held out her palm, then breathed in, draining one of her spheres. Then she breathed back out, sending a cloud of shimmering Stormlight into the air between herself and Dalinar. She formed it into a small image of Jasnah, the one she’d just drawn, on top of her palm.
“Almighty above,” Dalinar whispered. A single awespren, like a ring of blue smoke, burst out above him, spreading like the ripple from a stone dropped in a pond. Shallan had seen such a spren only a handful of times in her life.
As much as I love the moment of revelation for itself, the best thing for me is the effect on Dalinar. He’s just had to realize that Amaram was totally not a Knight Radiant, and had his tiny hopes in Kaladin crushed. Then he got word that Jasnah might actually have been one, but she’s dead. Blow after blow, when he’s all too aware of how the Radiants are needed now. Then Shallan gives him a tiny Illusion of Jasnah.
The rekindling of hope is a beautiful thing to see.
Off the Wall
AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebond
ButwherewherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricity
TheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthless
Canwecraftaweapon—From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2,
every second letter starting with the first
This epigraph most certainly gives credence to the theory of Szeth + the Honorblade as “the weapon” from last week. “They were left behind,” and “they are with the Shin” pretty much has to mean the Honorblades; in context, it seems rather like Truthless are the only ones required to use them. (Weird.)
This all makes me question: just when did the Diagram come into being? I know the common assumption is that it was after Gavilar’s death, but I’m beginning to doubt that. This almost sounds like Taravangian’s minions were actively influencing Szeth to make him Truthless so that he’d get the Honorblade.
Also: “apricity” is a term for warm sunlight in winter that makes you think it’s almost spring. Literally, it’s a longing for April; this seems relevant to JordanCon folks.
Commentary
Well, that’s a wide-ranging chapter if ever I saw one!
There are some further interesting notes regarding Shallan’s soldiers at the beginning. Last chapter, she wondered if she should have looked more closely into Gaz’s debts when she was worrying that he might have disappeared. This week, she admits to herself that she had “honestly expected them to run off after gaining their clemency.” So… a little less idealistic than she appeared, and a lot more pragmatic. She was essentially buying a temporary security force with future money, and expected them to take their reward and go. Instead, they are proud to be hers. They probably each have their own reasons for it, but it’s rather fun to watch.
One of my favorite moments is the one shortly after the QOTW, when Dalinar really lets it all sink in:
“It’s amazing,” Dalinar said, his voice so soft she could barely hear it over the pattering rain. “It is wonderful.” He looked up at her, and there were—shockingly—tears in his eyes. “You’re one of them.”
“Maybe, kind of?” Shallan said, feeling awkward. This man, so commanding, so much larger than life, should not be crying in front of her.
“I’m not mad,” he said, more to himself, it seemed. “I had decided that I wasn’t, but that’s not the same as knowing. It’s all true. They’re returning.”
Partly I love the awkwardness for Shallan, just because it’s funny. Mostly, I love the validation it gives Dalinar and the realization of how much he needed the confirmation of something outside his own head.
One of the key events in this chapter is Shallan’s conscious emulation of Jasnah wrt: her autonomy. I personally think her objection to his telling Navani is specious, but the rest of it is an exquisite combination of her innate stubbornness, commitment to her task, practicality, and imitation of Jasnah. Finding Urithiru is not only her personal goal; she’s really the only one who has a prayer of actually finding it, much less making it work. All that, she knows—but she has to stand up for it, against a man 30-some years her senior, the man in charge of the whole operation… really, the one man who might be considered to have the authority to permit or deny her plans.
Well, there are several other things I wanted to talk about, but my brain seems to be losing cohesion. We’ll just have to catch it in the comments!
Stormwatch
There are 6… 5… 4 days left in the countdown. We’re now on Day 5 of the expedition; up to now, it’s been pretty uneventful. That’s about to change, perhaps.
Sprenspotting
Creationspren are odd little beasties, in that they continually change shapes and form images of objects around them. I sure would love to know how they appear in the Cognitive realm. Pattern’s reaction to the ones which had gathered around Shallan while she was drawing is both “funny-haha and funny-peculiar” as my aunt used to say.
He sniffed. “Useless things.”
“The creationspren?”
“They don’t do anything. They flit around and watch, admire. Most spren have a purpose. These are merely attracted by someone else’s purpose.”
I’ve always assumed (lightly) that creationspren are to Cryptics as windspren are to Honorspren, but Pattern seems so contemptuous of them, while Syl constantly referred to windspren as her cousins. I guess the two aren’t mutually exclusive; Pattern could be disdainful of his analog, right?
As for Dalinar’s awespren… it gives me goosebumps. That is all.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
I never really intended to use this unit for the Parshendi, but it seems appropriate this week. Mostly, it’s rather amusing to hear the humans speculate about the different Parshendi forms, and mostly get it wrong. “I’ll take ‘Cosmere Looney Theories’ for 1000, Alex.”
Heraldic Symbolism
The most straightforward answer seems the most likely, this week: Ishar and Shalash represent their Knights-to-be. Not that we knew Dalinar would become a Bondsmith yet, of course, but it still makes sense. That, and Dalinar is following in his footsteps as the one to reorganize the Knights Radiant that Ishar first organized.
Shipping Wars
There’s been discussion recently, regarding Shallan’s motivation for maintaining her betrothal to Adolin. It seems appropriate, then, to note that Shallan freely acknowledges that Jasnah set up the causal as a means of binding Shallan to the Kholin family. It’s also worth noting that she blushes when she admits it.
(While we’re on the subject, just a comment: Yes, I do prefer the Shallan-Adolin ship to Shallan-Kaladin, and I’ve never pretended otherwise. It doesn’t mean I can’t see where people get their support for the S/K ship, or why they might prefer that pairing. It does, however, mean that I think the S/A ship is more plausible, better supported, more viable, and far more appealing. I’m not blind to the possibilities, but I certainly like one better than the other.)
Just Sayin’
“Almighty above,” says Dalinar, even though he knows the “Almighty,” at least in the form of Honor, has been killed. Old habits die hard?
Then there’s Bashin: “Shakiest thing I’ve ever seen…” I’m not entirely sure how this fits the world, but it’s a good line. I like it.
My favorite is Skar’s “but storm me for a fool if I’m wrong…”
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Dalinar interviews Rlain about the status of the Parshendi.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and now a JordanCon SanderTrack panelist. Wooot!
Here is hoping that in future SA books, we get to see some of Shallan’s portraits she drew of SA characters. I would like to see her picture of Jasnah and expecailly her drawing of Dalinar standing in the rain.
“funny- haha” reminds of the scene in Goodfellas.
I loved Shallan’s internal thoughts when Dalinar said that Shallan reminds him of Jasnah.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
S/A seems like it would be a more sensible relationship. Like both parties have carefully managed expectations and clearly identified interests they can communicate and keep things relatively sorted. S/K feels like it would be a mess of poorly understood impulses and where neither of them have any clue what they’re doing or where they’re going. I tend to prefer the one that will not end in tears.
S/A/K would, of course, be the perfect mix of reasonable decision making and passionate joie de vivre. But I might be the tiniest bit biased.
1000 points to the Wetlander for the apricity bit. So great meeting you last weekend!
Where did you guys find this post? It’s not on the re-read page or the front page.
Hello, This is my report from JodanCon. First there was an amazing Q&A panel. The transcript for it is 24 pages long. If you want to read it, look in the 17th Shard or the Storm Cellar facebook group. That is just too much information to share here. I’m working on my transcript from his signing too, but that too will be shared to the Storm Cellar. I helped at his signing, which was much fun and work. If you ever go to a signing, ask who is sitting next to Brandon, if anyone. I got a real joy seeing the looks of puzzlement turn to joy when I explained Ben McSweeny was sitting next to Brandon.
Second Brandon did do a new reading on Sunday. But he asked that we not record it or put it on the web. So my short report is this:
His humor when writing Syl is full on. Concerns about his visit home are handled quickly and well. Book 3 is going to kick into high gear fast. Almost anything else would be a spoiler. Sorry.
But Kaladin does think about how Adolin would shake his head at the outdated fashions being worn. Sorry, that one passing thought of Adolin is the only Adolin information I have to share. No one asked any questions about him that I heard answers about.
The questions I did get to ask, that were posted to the re-read are:
1) Elkonar’s queen, is she being influenced by Odium? Because for her to be that stupid and for Navani to go off away and say “Eh, the queen got it” seems weird.
BWS: You are, um, thinking along proper lines.
2) Can Kandra have human children? With absorb parts?
BWS: I saw a big Reddit thread on this. I gave vague and un-useful answers there, so you get the same. RAFO.
3) What happens to the spren the Parshendi bound when they switch forms?
Full answer is in the FB post. Boils down to the non-sapient spren is released to a new life and all is well with it. It does not evolve into a sapient spren or anything.
4) Does Hoid learn the languages magically? Or is he just a gifted linguist?
BWS: He is learning them magically. He’s decent with languages, but he has to speak as if he were a local in order to pass as he does. And no matter how gifted you are, doing that across multiple tongues, that’s really hard.
5) Q: Have Hoid and Sazed (as Harmony) interacted? A: Uhm… yes, that has happened.
Q: Was it meaningful?A: Hoid considers everything meaningful. [laughter]
Q: Would Sazed consider it meaningful? A: Sazed considers every individual meaningful. [more laughter ]
6) Is Khriss working for the 17th Shard? Is she a lone operator?
Answer summary: Khriss would get along with Edward Snowden. She’s a freedom of information person. And will provide information to anyone that asks.
7) What is the official timeline of the Cosmere?
Answer summary: It will get published soon. We had to nail down White Sands first and some things will depend on when the jump happens with the SA. Will the major skip be between book 5 & 6 or after book 7.
Full answer in Transcript.
Wow, good stuff, Braid_Tug! I had to duck out for volunteer duty, so I’m really grateful you were recording! I’ll have to head over to 17thShard and catch up on all the reports over there, obviously…
Characters in the original Mistborn trilogy swear by the Lord Ruler’s name through all three books.
Nazrax @7 – Good point. Once something has become part of the language, it tends to linger even when people lose their belief in it.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 5 – THANK YOU!!!! Wow!!! That is really great. I’m still green with envy you were able to go. I wanted to go. But, my work schedule did not allow it. :-( Plus I was house sitting and dog sitting this past weekend. Perhaps next time.
Love the fashion tidbit about Adolin. :-) That’s actually the best part of Adolin for me. That’s the part I love most.
Found one more in the signing:
Q: There won’t be a weird love triangle between Kaladin / Shallan / Adolin?
Ben: sharp laugh
A: I will do my best not to be weird.
Lots of laughter from me and Ben. You can just hear the smile in Brandon’s voice.
@7: totally agree. The language is much slower to change when it comes to our default expressions of amazement or cursing.
@9: There is always next year. :-D
@10 !!!!
Wait, what does “not weird” mean? Aaagh.
In a world where surviving the frequent, hurricane force winds depends on how sturdy a structure is, describing something as “shakiest” would be bad.
This is just the idea I’d gotten from the books (so if anyone knows WOB that contradicts it or just disagrees, feel free to shoot it down), but my idea was that a Truthless was bound to obey anyone who held the stone and that it might be anyone who picked up a blade (even a regular one) was bound to be Truthless and at the command of others. Szeth just happens to be a Truthless who picked up an Honorblade while trying to prove his point about the returning desolation or in the conflict that followed.
Faithful leader, I’ll respond to your response to my little poke last week.
I know now that you’re not blind to the other perspectives, I just found them interesting that you went so far out of your way to minimize all the factors pointing to the Kaladin/shall an relationship, especially when your perspective is so balanced otherwise. Again, I think that neither relationship works, but it will be a fun ride.
Thank you for the summary, Braid_Tug. Off to 17th Shard.
@Braid_Tug: Thanks for sharing, happy to hear Syl is on point, she’s one half of my favorite pair of characters after all! :D
Now to debate whether it’s worth going to look for that transcript or if that would be too much, I can only contain so much hype…
Dalinar’s awespren is an awesome moment, but also, yay for Rlain’s return! One of the things sadly a bit lost in the shuffle of this final part is Rlain coming back to Bridge 4 (we get just enough to know that they didn’t really have any drama because they’re cool like that).
@1 AndrewHB: Ditto on seeing more of Shallan’s drawings of the major characters, it would be nice to see them in book.
Well, the liner notes on the book actually did spoil on Dalinar being a Bondsmith.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 10 – I’m echoing Noblehunter at 11, What does “not weird” mean? Does it mean I won’t see 50 Shades of Kholin? *tongue-in-cheek*
It’s interesting to me how Shallan in this chapter both consciously emulates Jasnah and consciously diverges from Jasnah’s example, as when she thinks, “I can’t do as Jasnah did, holding it all. This is too important.” Shallan’s been very influenced by Jasnah, as well as others like Tyn, but she’s still making her own way and choosing how she’ll follow them. “She needed to be able to create, not just copy.” It’s good to see how Shallan has been able to balance being guided by others with forming herself.
And it’s neat (as well as amusing) to see Shallan attempt to figure out the different Parshendi forms. I like how Sanderson writes his characters’ attempts to analyze their world and magic and come up with theories to explain it all – they often don’t get it quite right and have to amend their theories as they discover more. In the Mistborn books, of course, we get to see the understanding of Allomancy being developed and refined over hundreds of years. It feels very real, and is that much more satisfying when they actually figure something out.
About the timeline of the Diagram: WoB seems to indicate that Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar’s death…I wonder if the epigraph is just saying that Taravangian needs to find a Truthless to use, not that he needs to make one in the first place? I like the idea of Taravangian and co. manipulating Szeth into becoming Truthless, but it is difficult timeline-wise…
Oh, and thanks here too for the definition of “apricity”. You have saved me from many nascent insane theories.
@1 AndrewHB: I recall seeing Brandon Sanderson say that he generally didn’t like to describe his characters in too much detail or have illustrations of them, so the readers would have more room to imagine them as they wished. (But of course he has the Michael Whelan paintings in WoR, and got the Alcatraz books fully illustrated, so he doesn’t feel that strongly.) I’d love to see a good rendition of Shallan’s picture of Jasnah, but I have to admit that I see where Sanderson is coming from. One of the things I like about fan art is the comfortable non-canonicity of it – you can imagine the character that way if you want, but you aren’t sort of…obligated to in the way you might feel that you are with canonical art. At any rate, it would still be fun to see Shallan’s drawings, particularly considering the insight they would give into how she looks at those characters.
@@.-@ Austin: I was able to see the post on the front page without any trouble…
@5 Braid_Tug: Thank you so much for asking those questions!! I was really happy about the answer to my Khriss question when I ran across it transcribing :D Now my fondness for her can be a little less irrational! I am so jealous though of the people who got to hear the reading…still desperate to find out anything about what happened to Lirin and Hesina…
I wasn’t aware that there was a Facebook group with transcripts, I’ll have to investigate that.
By the way, other commenters, the Q&A transcript is here if you don’t want to poke around in long 17th Shard threads: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J43km7wrrZnOuM2WJe2DpBsk_C0E6yLJ8bDxqfen-P4
“in context, it seems rather like Truthless are the only ones required to use them.”
IMHO, this utterance equally lends itself to a different interpretation (which, IMHO, makes more sense) – that they’d need to make a Truthless of one who already had access to one of the Honorblades and requisite instruction. Because unlike, say, Kaladin, the knowledge of how to use the surges wouldn’t come naturally, would it? That would fit with Szeth’s thoughts of being a _trained_ Surge-binder, as well as the fact that there don’t seem to be any historical precedents of Truthless wreaking havoc abroad. Yet, even before Taravangian, Szeth couldn’t consistently conceal his abilities from his owners and was compelled to use them occasionally, gradually escalating. Reaction of the Shin trader when asked about “more like the last one” was also indicative of him being a completely unique case. And Szeth’s conviction that the Stone Shamans could and would retrieve his Blade after his death also indicates that _they_ use the other Honorblades and are good with them.
Which makes me wonder – how would they learn about Szeth’s death and track the sword? Did they expect him to become notorious and whoever picked up the Honorblade to be flagrant in it’s use, or do they have some arcane method of monitoring?
Obviously, Taravangian couldn’t have used the Shin who normally have access to the Blades, though, so he needed to make (one of them into) a Truthless. But the timing _doesn’t_ fit, as Taravangian only created the Diagramm after Gavilar’s death. Hm… Maybe geniusT was talking about something else? Maybe Szeth _was_ set-up, maybe he _was_ “made a Truthless” for some purpose, but not by T himself?
@17: The Storm Cellar is the FB group of Sanderson fans I created and moderate. I can’t post a link to it currently, because I’m at work and FB is blocked on work computers. If I don’t see anyone else post the link later, I’ll do so this weekend. The group is a closed one, so you have to join to read anything. It helps to keep the spammers out, and when you post there – your FB friends outside of the group – are not shown Sanderson stuff they might not care about.
Thanks for posting the link to the 17th Shard.
This is the first time I’ve posted a transcript to the FB group. I’ve never had a voice recorder before. But I totally borrowed from the power of the 17th Shard to get the transcription done. And I thank them for their document.
The largest change to my transcription is I added Billy Todd’s comments (the moderator), posted names of questioner when known, and returned some of the other comments. This makes it read more like the event in all it’s fun.
The signing transcript is almost done. It is only 7-8 pages.
If the Honorblades disappear when their owner dies, how can the Stone Shamans retrieve Szeth’s? And why didn’t it disappear when Kaladin killed Szeth? Are the rules different if the owner is a Herald?
@20: Szeth is not the true owner of the Honorblade he used. He was a keeper of it, so yes, there is questions of how did he bond it so it could be retrieved from the not-Physical realm. The Herald who is bonded to his sword must still be alive. So yes, Honorblades have very different rules. But we don’t know what they are yet.
@16 Of course we wouldn’t see 50 shades of Kholin, not unless it was a very OOC fanfic. Adolin just wants to take care of his bridgeboy. Shallan is content to draw it.
The RAFO Olympics transcript was a blast. The only problem is waiting for the stormwardens to digest everything and see what can be extrapolated from the new data.
If the Honorblades disappear when their owner dies, how can the Stone Shamans retrieve Szeth’s? And why didn’t it disappear when Kaladin killed Szeth? Are the rules different if the owner is a Herald?”
Does that mean that when the Heralds died, the Honorblades disappeared from where they were to reappear where the Stone Shamans are? Otherwise how were they able to assemble them all? So much is still unclear about these Honorblades…
@23 I just always assumed that the tWoK Prelude battle took place in what is now Shinovar, and Jasnah and others drew an incorrect conclusion that the final battle took place on the Shattered Plains. Given this scenario, when the remaining Heralds disbanded the blades were already in place for the Stone Shamans to protect.
As for the Honorblade not disappearing when Szeth died… Maybe the blades are still mapped to the Heralds somehow despite forsworn oaths, similar to how Kaladin and Shallan are bonded — or in the process of bonding — to their respective spren despite not speaking all words. In other words, the bond between Herald and Honorblade was weakened to a tenuous “proto-Radiant” level. Could also explain why the blade looks different in the present day. Maybe it was far more powerful in its original form when it was fully bonded to Jezrien.
Or maybe Szeth was in fact bonded to the blade but the exact mechanism for Honorblade dissolution is not actually physical death, but being plucked from Shadesmar as a cognitive shadow to whatever the analog is in Damnation (Braize). Perhaps Nalan pulled Szeth back in time. But, I think this would be predicated on Szeth swearing to the Oathpact and all it entails. Therefore the Oathpact itself could be the reason the Honorblades disappear with the Heralds, the blades are now free agents and won’t actually disappear until new Oaths are sworn with them (which goes back to the idea in my second paragraph concerning bonding levels).
Okay, lots of stray, meandering thoughts and not enough time to structure it all for readability. Sorry about that.
TL;DR: All Honorblades except Taln’s are free agents as a result of forsworn Oaths, and are either not currently bonded or in a lower state of bonding, as in the case of Szeth. This is what prevented Jezrien’s blade from disappearing when Szeth died (not enough Oath juice). Unless it has already been stated, we may come to find that live, fully bonded Shardblades functioned this way and disappeared from the physical realm upon the owner’s death, whereas of course “dead” ones do not.
Braid_Thug, good stuff you bring forward even if it doesn’t fall within my personal interest. I am mostly interested in this love triangle related question… Of course I was not there to evaluate Brandon’s reaction, but the answer he gave makes me believe we are indeed going to read a love triangle. Now this isn’t going to surprise many readers: we all more or less expected it.
This being said, despite my preferences, I am growing increasingly convinced Shallan/Kaladin will be the lasting ship. In each book I felt as if Brandon was trying out on different scenarios to bring together people and the “arranged wedding” is one he has extensively used. It thus makes it more improbable, for me, it would ultimately work with Adolin despite myself thinking they would make the best pair. People don’t always end up with the individual they would best pair with: this is known fact of life.
Even if she blushed, I am growing increasingly unconvinced of Shallan’s feelings towards Adolin which now appear to me as superficial while her interest in Kaladin appears more genuine, even if I personally dislike their chemistry. The new Shallan is an adventurous girl, I do see her trying out what the world has to offer before settling down and if I am indeed right, I certainly do not want her to go back to Adolin once her exploration period is over. It would make him her pity price and I would hate it since he would mostly be sitting still waiting for her the whole time. So no, I hope it won’t play out this way.
Re: Disappearing Honorblades: Perhaps the Honorblades function similarly to dead Shardblades, particularly since both were left behind after oaths were broken. Dead Shardblades don’t disappear after their holders’ deaths, while you could make a good case that live sprenblades would. So by analogy, left-behind Honorblades don’t disappear when their current holder dies, but Honorblades wielded by Oathpact-bound Heralds would.
But of course, we don’t really know how similar Honorblades and Shardblades are. They may function completely differently.
@19 Braid_Tug: Thanks for the signing transcript!! I love the tidbit about Alcatraz speaking in Brandon’s voice – that makes me happy.
From Jordanian RAFOlympics 2016
“[23:00]
Q: So in Words of Radiance, when Hoid switches places with the carriage driver, who was mentioned as having a hat and a strange accent – is that carriage driver important?
A: That’s a – I’ll leave this one to you. It’s a RAFO, but not a big RAFO.”
OMG! (runs to check book)
Could that be a certain Mistborn Character? (Wayne)
@27 marbelcal: But Era 1.5 happens after the first five Stormlight books, so unless you want to think that Wayne’s secretly been a worldhopper the whole time in those books, it’s a bit tricky to explain…My sister and I have a truly insane theory which involves the proposition that Wayne is actually a spren, which would aid in explanation, but like I said it’s an insane theory and we don’t even believe it.
@27, 28, has time travel been ruled out? Sounds like there’s the opportunity for some fun shenanigans with disparate frames of reference.
@29: We’ve never heard of time travel in the Cosmere before, except into the future. So it’s possible, of course, but it’s a huge can of worms that I’d rather not open seriously unless there’s a really compelling reason…
Time travel shenanigans, indeed.
” It’s theoretically possible to go forward in time when traveling at relativistic speeds. So it’s theoretically possible that this carriage driver from WoR is only a bit younger than Wayne from Era 1.5, who seems to be on friendly terms with Hoid. Also, a younger Wayne might not yet be an expert in mimicing accents. “
Sorry, I tried to white that out just in case but it’s not working.
It’s a fun thought experiment. Also, I like the spren idea. So, is Wayne bonded to Wax? When Wax levels up will wayne consent to becoming his gun? Wayne hates guns, but that is Wax’s weapon of choice.
@32 Marbelcal: The theory goes: All spren names that we’ve see have a Y in them. (Syl, Wyndle, Ivory, Glys…Pattern doesn’t count because he himself says that it’s not his real name.) Therefore, anybody with a Y in their name is a spren. Obviously, the point of the theory is not to be reasonable, but rather to use a strange pattern to generate some amusing speculations. Some of the spren this theory “finds” include Wayne (helping to explain his talent for disguises and accents – he’s obviously related to Cryptics and Lightweaving!), Ym (“confirmed” by all the stuff he says about being a fragment of the One, as that makes sense if he’s a Splinter), Rysn (explains why Brandon Sanderson is treating her to multiple viewpoints), Tyn, Wyrn from Elantris, Tindwyl, Aslydin (Demoux’s wife; helps to explain why he doesn’t age!), and, my favorite, the Mythwalker from the eponymous unpublished work. I also find it fishy that it’s only the planets with Y names that don’t have Shards (Threnody, Ashyn, and maybe Yolen). That can’t be a coincidence…right? :)
Sorry if anyone minds the derailment into tinfoil-hattery…
If I may borrow this thread for another thought experiment derived from the JordanCon thread, I found a few more passages quite interesting:
“[1:23:58]
[…] You tried, you got me to admit that I was trying to wiggle around it, and I’ll tell you, today I wiggled around one question that none of you saw me wiggle around, really well, today. Today. I’m not going to tell you which one it is but there is one here that you all thought, you’re all like “woo!” but you didn’t realize you’d given me so much wiggle room.”
And this:
“[1:07:32]
Q: When it comes to the… epic-level spren on Roshar, like the Nightwatcher and Stormfather – is the number of epic-level spren equal to the number of Bondsmiths that you have on Roshar?
A: Hm, is the number of epic-level spren related to the number of Bondsmiths you have? Well, I’ve said there’s a maximum of three. And there are three Shards involved in Roshar. I’m not gonna tell you if that’s a coincidence or not. Sorry.”
Finally:
“[49:40]
Q: Talking about the Stormfather, are the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren, Cusicesh, are they on the same level?
A: The Nightwatcher, yes. Um…uh…there are…I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that’s what Cusicesh is.
Q: So the Nightwatcher is a spren?
A: They call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That’s what they would call…that’s what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive. So they would call Nightblood a spren. That’s the word for what all of these things are. They would probably call Adonalsium a spren.”
So, we have three powerful spren and three shards. Each spren is able to bond with someone to form a Bondsmith. Stormfather is/was associated with Honor and is bonded with Dalinar. Is Nightwatcher associated with Cultivation? Coppermind says that Nightwatcher was on Roshar prior to the shattering of Adonalsium. Still, the association is possible. Don’t know if we’ve seen the third superspren yet, but we know it is not Cusicesh.
Anyway, my question is–could Taravangian be a proto Bondsmith bonded with Nightwatcher? Nightwatcher wouldn’t necessarily require the same ideals as a person bonded to Stormfather. This does not preclude the boon/curse bestowed on Taravangian. Indeed, the bond would have come after his initial visit and his day of brilliance.
@33 sheesania
Love that theory!
We just started calling Wayne the human Kandra last weekend. Able to change without eating anyone.
The timelines are close, but it would still be really hard for him to be the driver. Unless things go really weird in the Lost Metal.
Glad you are having fun with the Q&A.
IIRC, Billy managed to pry out of Brandon what the thing was that he weaseled around. I’ll have to go back and check.
On the very side note, anyone has managed to put his hands onto the anthology? I am still a bit flustered nothing was planned for us, the non-US resident fans. I keep hearing reports for it, but it seems confusing. Apparently, Szeth has been confirmed as a Skybreaker? I have not expected revelation such as this to come out in an anthology… Anyone has thoughts?
@38 Gepeto: I assume you’re talking about the Stormlight Archive Companion. Brandon Sanderson said on Twitter about it:
A Redditor said:
So it is a tad bothersome that we non-US fans are left out of it, but it sounds like it’s basically just a pretty book containing information we already have in the books. Not too exciting unless you’re a collector.
@39: Ah thanks. My understanding was it contained additional information not available in the books. People are getting pretty excited about the Szeth thing and I keep reading everywhere how he has been confirmed a Skybreaker…. As far as I know, Szeth is part of the new Skybreaker founded by Nale which may or may not be the real thing, but we have WoB stating how Szeth cannot use Stormlight as he currently is making Nightblood very dangerous for him to yield.
Ah still this 5 major characters thing… which was again stated by Brandon at JordanCon. Someday, someone will have to explain to me how these things work.
As for the non-US resident thing, it is bothersome. I wish Brandon’s team would organize an event solely for the benefit of those who don’t live in the US and thus do not have access to the SA3 readings which cannot be shared and whom have no tribune to ask questions for themselves.
Who is the 5th major character? Eshonai?
Now this WoB is odd and ominous:
“Well, I’ve said there’s a maximum of three. And there are three Shards involved in Roshar. I’m not gonna tell you if that’s a coincidence or not. Sorry.”
Surely, a Bondsmith can’t be bonded to a large splinter of Odium? That would be completely counter-intuitive. Yet, could it be possible that each of the max 3 Bondsmiths has greater power over bonds from one of the 3 Shards? Which is why whoever it was had been able to break the bonds beween Listener-voidbringers and their spren and turn them into parshmen?
Oh, and from the transcript on 17th Shard, it seems that the non-sentient spren that the Listeners bond for their forms aren’t changed or enriched/made sentient by this experience. OTOH, they are also not consumed, but released unharmed when the Listeners change forms. Oh, well. I liked my theory, but c’est la vie.
And Hoid does use Investiture to perfectly speak all those different Cosmere languages! Neat.
P.S. And I forgot to add re: the chapter itself feeling so very happy for Dalinar the first time I read it. For all that various people see him as this unstoppable force of nature and/or rock of self-confidence, he has been under tremendous amount of stress and struggling with self-doubt for solong. And, finally, vindication. Beautiful.
I was also so glad that the characters, even those naturally inclined to keep secrets, such as Shallan, do eventually chose to share important information with people who need it when not under duress/facing imminent threat of death, etc. I will remain forever traumatised by WoT in this regard and I was very much afraid to see the repetition of it, particularly seeing how Kaladin and Shallan acted until now in that regard. And in this chapter, not only did the latter reveal herself, but the former more or less fessed up as well!
Regarding the SA companion. It was created by Tor to celebrate US National Independent Booksellers Day. But it wasn’t widely available even in the USA. In the state of Texas, about 15 copies were sent to the city of Houston. There were none in the state of Oklahoma.
So it’s more like a ticket to Wonka’s chocolate factory. A rare treat.
But again, it was the collected art and a RAFO page at the end. I know this because friends got one. Not me. I was an 8 hour drive from a shot at getting one.
It was not created by Team Sanderson. Don’t blame them for it.
The UK and Europe has a similar day. Wait for it. Or write to Tor asking for a wider release.
@Alice, I’m thinking Brandon wiggled around the epic spren question. His talk about the word spren strikes me as an Ase Sedai answer now.
Also check Brandon’s upcoming events. He’s going to Europe soon.
41: The 5 main characters of the first arc are: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Szeth and Eshonai. As far as I could tell based on the reviews I have found, the anthology presents only those which implies anyone else is not considered crucial to future events (we already knew that, but this is an additional confirmation). We, of course, know Jasnah, Renarin and Lift are crucial to the second half, but it appears as if their role into the first arc will probably be more limited (we already knew that as well, but this is an additional confirmation). On the subject of Lift, Brandon is usually quite vocal about her future in the story. He has been asked about her and he was prompt to reassure people she did have one viewpoint in book 3, a full novella and she would be a major character into the second half. For the rest, the major 5 are the ones events/actions/main story line will articulate itself around. It is growing increasingly obvious both Szeth and Eshonai will be Radiants just as the individual going with the name of Shalash perhaps is not Shalash, but in any event will most likely become a Dustbringer as this is the only order for which we currently miss a main character.
As for Dalinar, I will try to express a thought which I hope will not be misinterpreted. I like Dalinar as a character, I enjoy reading him, most of the time though his theological questioning back in WoK was not my favorite bout, and I am excited to read his flashbacks as his past interests me more than his present. This being said, he also is a character I dislike for I disagree with most of his decisions, most of his behavior and I do wonder if he will truly turn out to be a good guy. It is obvious to me he means well, but I also think he may end up doing a lot of wrong out of stubbornness. So he is a character I currently enjoy disliking, if this makes sense.
Edit: @42: I live neither in the UK nor in Europe, so tough luck. No matter who’s decision it was, it is sad “other fans” are again treated as if they were non-existent (I may still write to Tor to complain about it, though I am relieved to find out nothing crucial was put in the book as I initially feared). I don’t blame Sanderson Team so much: they aren’t doing anything different than any other author’s team. I just wish international fans were given just a small glimmer of thought, once in a while. I am super excited by the European tour, but sadly I don’t live in Europe, so tough luck again.
@34 Marbelcal: Huh, that’s an interesting idea. And even if the Nightwatcher did require the same oaths as the Stormfather, it could still fit – Taravangian is trying to “unite them” too, after all. Actually, I quite like the idea of both Taravangian and Dalinar being Bondsmiths following from those same visions…and hey, then Amaram can be the third Bondsmith since he knows about the visions, too! Lovely. However, I’m still not sure if Taravangian could be any sort of Radiant at all given his end-justifies-the-means philosophy.
Oh, and I’m glad you enjoyed my silly theory. :) That’s my sister and I’s favorite timekiller: nutty Cosmere theories. The Y=Spren is a good one, but my favorite is probably our reading of the Lift interlude as an allegory about government intervention in the economy. It works so perfectly it’s rather alarming.
@40 Gepeto: Brandon Sanderson and co. do occasionally have online Q&A’s that are open to everybody, which I’m guessing aren’t nearly as fun as a signing, but at least offer a chance to ask some questions. I was able to personally interact with him for the first time in an AMA on Reddit several months ago. I also expect that he’ll post those SA 3 readings online eventually…perhaps after his visit to Arizona in June? I’m just as impatient for them as the next fan, but at any rate, we’re not being completely ignored.
@41 Isilel: I like the idea about each Bondsmith having power related to bonds from one of the Shards, though I’m just as skeptical as you are about a Bondsmith bonding a splinter of Odium…Just to check, though, we never actually confirmed that theory about the Bondsmith from in-world WoR breaking the Listener voidspren bonds, did we?
@45: The problem with the online Q&A is the majority of questions are left unanswered. I do not blame Brandon, there were a LOT of questions in the last AMA (maybe Reddit badly managed this one, it should have probably limited the number of questions to go through or something), but I have wondered how he chose which ones to answers and which ones not to (sometimes he answered 3-4 questions, left 3-4 blank, than answered the next 3-4 ones). It seems to me as if the only way to get a definite answer to a question was to go to the signings as you do get your three questions, no matter what they may be while, on the AMA, you have no guarantee your question will be answered. Unfortunately, the kind of questions I am personally interested in tends to be the ones who get ignored, in a general manner. Not many character related questions were answered in the last AMA, most were left open.
We are not being completely ignored, but we do not have the opportunity to ask personal questions nor do we get the chance to have access to those readings until several more months later. The last Dalinar one has yet to be officially made available. I understand why, those are to reward the fans who come to the signings, but it is slightly disheartening for those who just can’t (whatever the reasons, US resident fans may also live in remote areas and may be incapable of travelling even if living in the same country) and who are just as big fans.
Again, I absolutely do not blame Brandon or anyone, it is just sad we international fans are at such a disadvantage when it comes to those.
A lot of people have speculated Dalinar would die by the end of the first arc… If he does, then it seems obvious there will be at least one other Bondsmith….
I’m not convinced one must be bonded to an Honorblade to use it. Syl says, in-book, that the blade wielded by Szeth would turn anyone into a Windrunner, and BWS confirmed several years ago that people who are not Heralds can use them. Neither make mention of being bonded to the blade before using it; which doesn’t prove a darn thing, but seems like it would at least be mentioned in-passing in this context. YMMV. It does appear that non-Heralds don’t get all the power-ups from the blade available to its original owner (or maybe other Heralds), though.
I had always assumed that the act of slamming the honor blades into the Rock was a part of the process the heralds used to break their bonds to the blades. Likewise Szeth broke his bond to the blade as Kaladin stabbed him.
We have yet to see what happens when a non-herald who has bonded an Honorblade dies. I suspect that without the oath pact to keep the person “alive” the bond is broken, leaving the blade to whoever finds it.
I
I note that Alice’s surmise that the Diagram may have been written prior to Gavilar’s assassination appears to be based on how to parse the cited epigram. “Canwemaketousea Truthless..” which contains extra words. If we disregard “to use”, then the sentence reads “can we make a Truthless”, and carries the implication that Taravangian was involved in forming or guiding Szeth into being a Truthless. That must have happened prior to Szeth assassinating Gavilar. However, if “to make” is disregarded then the sentence reads, “can we use a Truthless..”. Then it is just a question of finding Szeth after he assassinated Gavilar – as in the Interlude where Taravangian’s servant (Mrail?) finds Szeth in Bavland and obtains his oathstone. There are other odd words in the cited epigram. While apricity is a dictionary word meaning springlike winter warmth, it appears to be unrelated to the preceding words “ObviousRealizationlike”. Other oddities are the conversational “Ahbut”, the repetition of “where” 4 times, and the use of “Setoff” as if it were an editing command. These oddities presumably have a function (other than provoking the curious). What is the function or code that they represent?
STBLST, to fill in a bit on your train of thought:
Each capitalization seems to consistently indicate the beginning of a sentence. In that context, the phrase “Setoff” seems even more like an editing command. Then we have “Obvious”. That word should stand alone; as in derp-a-derp, smack myself in the forehead obvious! Then we have everything else that you covered so very well. ^_^
Re: Bonding an Honorblade: I think Szeth must have been bonded in some fashion to his Honorblade, because he could summon and dismiss it. But that bond could be much more similar to one with a dead Shardblade than one with a sprenblade.
@49 STBLST: I took “Realizationlikeapricity” to mean that his realization is as surprising and pleasant as warm sun in winter. Overall, that bit of the Diagram seemed to me to be basically stream of consciousness, which is why we get the “wherewherewherewhere” and “Ahbut” and “ObviousRealization” and whatnot. Still, that doesn’t rule out there being some coded meaning too.
Hello, reread! I’ve been catching up for a while, just in time to jump in near the end. Really enjoying the discussion among you clever people. :-)
On Dalinar: You may still be crazy, my friend, but not about this. Not about this.
On JordanCon: Thanks for the transcript, Braid_Tug! Good stuff.
I have a different impression of the Nightwatcher = spren bit than commenters thus far. I submit that the Nightwatcher is NOT a spren in the “Rosharian transformative cognitive entity” (which I’ve always read as achieved physical being through transformation from the cognitive realm) sense.
My new theory is that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation herself in sort-of disguise. 1) This resolves Wyndle’s references to visiting the Mother, which are super unclear if he’s talking about two separate beings. 2) We have no evidence of widespread Cultivation worship that would fuel an idea made reality like the Almighty/Stormfather. She has western worshippers per Jasnah, but those could be Shin, and Shinovar is weird when it comes to Investiture. Rysn tells us there are no spren there. 3) The Nightwatcher has an association with death – “all save the Heralds themselves must dine with the Nightwatcher” – which makes no sense if she’s just a cantankerous fairy godmother, but could work if she’s Cultivation grieving Honor’s demise. 4) Both are explicitly female. Just sayin’.
I could be wrong. I probably am. But this beats my other loony theory…
On Cryptics and creationspren: I’m slowing coming around to the theory on Order-associated non-sentient spren forming Shardplate. It would make Pattern’s “creationspren are useless” rant nicely ironic, no? (But seriously, Pattern. Tell me what good rainspren do. Or flamespren. Or shamespren, outside of making for more social awkwardness than the Royal Locks.)
But I have an alternative. We know from WoK that Shardplate requires Stormlight to regenerate. We also know that Stormlight makes plants grow.
Ergo, Shardplate is a plant.
@51 sheesania, your stream of consciousness accounting for some of the language in the cited epigram has merit. Taravangian may have had the need to write down the flood of ideas in his mind without any mental censoring. However, that does not account for such phrases as “Setoff”. The extra words in ” Canwemaketousea Truthless” may indicate an uncertainty in his mind if a suitable candidate already exists (although “to” is out of place). Taravangian certainly knew about Szeth – assuming that his visit to the Nightwatcher occurred after the assassination, but not his whereabouts. Finally, “ObviousRealization” doesn’t jibe with your understanding of apricity as a ‘surprising’ warmth. “WelcomeRealizationlikeapricity” would have been more appropriate. Still, the capitalization of “Realization” may indicate that the proper punctuation of the phrase should be ‘Obvious! Realization like apricity.’ It’s still awkward, but perhaps within the realm of stream of consciousness. I still maintain, though, that there is likely a hidden code here.
@53 STBLST: I also wondered about some of the word choices and syntax. Do you think it’s intentional that most of this epigraph is in iambic pentameter? I’ve inserted Shakespearean line breaks below:
And then the pentameter falls apart.
It’s almost like Taravangian was listening to a song that changed meter. Given other hints of musical significance, maybe he was.
@53 STBLST: “Setoff” is indeed odd to me, but I think RestlessSpirit’s idea could make sense: it’s supposed to highlight “Obvious” as standing alone. On “apricity”, I’m not sure how it being a “surprising” warmth doesn’t fit…Maybe it was an obvious realization, but it was also a sudden realization, a rapid and pleasant change from “wherewherewherewhere” to knowing where they are and how he could use them.
@54 AriadneAdler: Uh…that didn’t scan as straight iambic pentameter to me…but it does have some interestingly regular rhythm that I had never noticed before. Here’s my attempt at analyzing what’s roughly going on. (Hopefully I’m not completely off base; I’m not particularly well trained in poetry.)
AH but THEY were LEFT be-HIND [iambic]
it is OB-vious from the NA-ture of the BOND [stressed-unstressed-unstressed-unstressed]
but WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE [no clear rhythm]
set off OB-vious real-i-ZA-tion like a-PRI-city [stressed-unstressed-unstressed-unstressed]
they are WITH the SHIN we MUST FIND ONE [no clear rhythm]
can we MAKE to USE a TRUTH-less [iambic]
can we CRAFT a WEAP-on [no clear rhythm]
I didn’t really take much importance from “Set off,” which is how I read it – as two words, as in “[The Honor Blades were] Set off [where they wouldn’t be picked up by random passers-by]”. Of course, once he realizes that they would have to be held by a people who wouldn’t immediately use them to conquer the entire world, he comes to the “Obvious” realization that they are with the Shin, who appear to abhor violence.
And, as a followup, as soon as that occurs to him, he has the welcome-like-a-spring-day’s-sunshine realization that all he has to do is acquire the oath-stone of a truthless holding an Honor Blade, and he has a ready-made, potent weapon capable of causing the sort of mayhem that allows him to successfully conquer Jah Keved.
I agree with the conclusion that he contemplates either making use of an existing Truthless, or if he can’t find one, wonders if he can make one. I don’t think it lends any conclusive support to any conclusion as to when the Diagram was made.
@many – This is third-hand information, so I’m not even trying for anything other than a paraphrase, but Billy Todd managed (over a late-night gaming session) to pry something unexpected out of Brandon. As he shared it with us the next day, it looks something like this:
The Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are roughly analogous, related to Honor and Cultivation, with one primary difference being that Honor is dead and Cultivation isn’t, so they aren’t quite the same. But… similar. For Odium, however, instead of a single greater Splinter such as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher… get this… there are multiple, lesser-than-S&N-but-greater-than-all-other-spren… Unmade. (DUN!) Yup. Honor and Cultivation each had one great Splinter, plus the lesser sapient spren such as Honorspren, Highspren, Cryptics, etc. For Odium, there are several almost-great Splinters, (and maybe some lesser sapient spren?).
So a hierarchy would look like this:
Level 1: Stormfather, Nightwatcher
Level 2: Unmade
Level 3?: Cusicesh, and similar beings
Level 4?: Honorspren, Highspren, Cryptics, other sapient Nahel-bond-forming spren
Level 5?: non-sapient spren such as windspren, rainspren, painspren, etc.
One thing that is not clear in my recollection is whether spren such as the stormspren bonded by the Listeners to make stormform are in the Level 4 sapient spren category, or if they’re Level 5 non-sapient, or if they’re something else entirely. Another thing I’m not 100% sure of is whether Cusicesh is a higher-level being than the Nahel spren, or lower, or a completely different categorization. So there are still a lot of questions, but a few things have become… slightly clearer than mud, if not as clear as crystal!
Also: Brandon has specifically been using the term “sapient” rather than “sentient” – because “sapient” means that the entity has intelligence and the ability to reason, where as “sentient” means that the entity merely has sensation & perception.
As it relates to some of the earlier discussion, it looks to me like you could say that Nightwatcher is “mother” to the sapient spren as Stormfather is “father” to them. Wyndle would have much the same relationship to Nightwatcher as Sylphrena has to Stormfather, in other words. Spren more closely tied to Cultivation would look more to the “mother” (this would be the bottom half of the TWoK endpaper chart – the spren associated with Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, Edgedancers, and Dustbringers). Spren more closely tied to Honor would look to the “father” (yada yada Willshapers, Stonewards, Bondsmiths, Windrunners, and Skybreakers).
Braid_Tug – did you get Billy’s comments recorded? I think it was at the beginning of the Cosmere Speculation panel, so you might still have been at the reading.
With that information, it would suggests that the 3 Bondsmiths are all bonded to the Stormfather as there would not be 3 sprens at that level of the Stormfather.
Yes, that’s sort of the implication, isn’t it? If I’m correct in thinking that the sapient spren form a kind of spectrum from totally-Honor (Bondsmith) to totally-Cultivation (Truthwatcher), it would simply mean that the Stormfather bonded himself to three Knights, I think. What this might mean for the relationship between Glys and the Nightwatcher is… and interesting question! But there’s no reason for Honor and Cultivation to do things the same way.
One possibility is that the Stormfather had more “capacity” to bond people before Honor died, as he was directly supported by Honor. This would support the possibility that the equivalent binding with Cultivation’s spren is not limited in the same way as the Stormfather as Cultivation is still alive to give support.
Or just as you said that they do not work the same way…
@55: You didn’t have Mrs. Kropp for AP English. :-)
It’s my experience that iambic pentameter can be stealthy. For example, a good bit of the dialogue in HBO’s Deadwood was in IP. Unless you were looking for it, it was easy not to notice.
Sure, it’s not perfect. Shakespeare cheated with his, too. There are official names (which I’ve forgotten – sorry, Mrs. Kropp!) for some of the cheats, like omitting the unstressed syllable from the first iamb, sticking in an extra unstressed syllable, and inverting the stress of an iamb – all of which are present.
I stand by calling this iambic pentameter.
And now that I’m looking, it’s not just in this epigraph. From Ch. 76:
The Ch. 77 epigraph reads to me as straight prose. I’m not going to insist on lyrical underpinnings for every bit of the Diagram, but I honestly do think I’m onto something.
What it might mean… No clue.
@61 It sounds close enough that we should get confirmation from Team Sanderson. Unless this is the sort of thing that is easy to do by accident?
@57 and others: Well, there goes my Nightwatcher theory! Really, though, most of that info confirms bits and pieces this reread had already strongly suspected. I think there’s a lot more we DON’T know.
Why isn’t there one epic Odium-spren? Do the Unmade kind of add up to that? Conversely, why aren’t there multiple second-tier spren for Honor and Cultivation? Why do neither the Stormfather nor the Nightwatcher seem to have much of a tie to the Shardic intent of their parent? Does this mean the Unmade aren’t necessarily all hateful (I’m thinking of the implications for the trustworthiness of the Death Rattles in particular)? Why do only some spren form some types of bonds (Nahel, Parshendi, likely fabrial…), and what is the relationship between the spren’s level of smarts and the richness of the bond? I could go on, but that’s the great thing about Sanderson: there’s always another secret.
@60: Since Honor was alive at the time of the Recreance, all Bondsmiths prior to Dalinar were backed up by a live Shard.
@62: The rhythm alone, maaaaybe. The pattern of sentence breaks at five iambic feet make it a lot less likely to be chance. I’d love to have WoTeam Sanderson!
@57 Wetlandernw: Now that is very interesting! If the stormspren aren’t sapient, that means Odium’s spren are always a level behind Honor and Cultivation’s comparable spren in terms of sapience.
@61 AriadneAdler: I still have trouble calling that iambic pentameter…I don’t have a problem with the cheats (they were present in how I scanned it too!), but many of the stressed syllables you marked don’t seem to be naturally stressed to me. It is quite interesting that the epigraph can be split up into neat 9- or 10-syllable lines, but I can’t read each line the way you stressed it without it sounding forced.
Iambic rhythms are one of the more natural ones to the English language, so I don’t think it’s impossible that an imperfect iambic pentameter like this was accidental.
@64 sheesania: I’ve consistently respected your opinions in this reread, and this topic is no different; so this will be my last word on the subject of meter unless/until it comes up again in a more concrete and significant way.
Not everyone is equally sensitive to rhythm, and it’s entirely possible I’m forcing an interpretation that isn’t there. I can agree to disagree with you on how likely that may be until Team Sanderson weighs in, and I’ll have no hard feelings however it turns out.
I don’t know how to explain that, once I opened my mental ears to the Part V epigraphs, I started hearing beats – and not just beats, but musical emphases, and rests – without sounding crazy, but there it is.
For those written with standard punctuation, I get nothing for more than two or three beats regardless of how I force it, and I attribute that to chance and the natural flow of English. (Two, 80 and 86, are too short to draw conclusions either way.)
However, every single one of the epigraphs with obviously goofy punctuation – that’s 76, 78, 83, and 89 – appears to me to have a distinct rhythm. I now believe the last two lines of 76 are four-beat with a finishing rest. 83 starts four-beat, then transitions following a bridge measure into five-beat. 89 is four-beat with rests.
Consider – why did Brandon smoosh the punctuation on these particular passages? I think he was hiding the rhythm, and if you write them out with sentence breaks – and especially lyrical line breaks – it becomes too clear. In a world with Parshendi rhythms and a mysterious Dawnchant, is arcane lyricism really unlikely?
It is a pattern.
@65 AriadneAdler: Oh, no hard feelings at all; I appreciate your pointing out the rhythms you saw, especially as I’d never noticed them before. The only thing I disagreed with was the specific rhythms that were going on – I agree that there’s something regular to the meter, though I reserve judgment for now as to whether it was intentional. At any rate, I’ll be keeping my ears out now as the epigraphs continue through this part. (Parenthetically, this whole conversation has been rather amusing, since tomorrow I’m taking the AP English Lit test. If I manage to do well on the exam, I suspect the WoR reread will be partly responsible since it’s given me lots of practice doing literary analysis…)
@sheesania: Oddly, you just can’t get the same kind of fun group analysis going for Crime and Punishment. Good luck, and “9” those essays!!
Catching up and reading the comments, but figured I’d throw my 2 cents on this one, as I posted something similar on 17th Shard:
@34 – I like your thought experiment. Actually, I think the wiggling around happened specifically with the number of epic-level spren, Shards, Bondsmiths and his reference of Cusicesh.
Brandon never answers the actual question; as a matter of fact he actually creates the link between Bondsmith and Shards, substituting that for the original question/comparison/link about the “epic-level” spren. And then later suggesting that any Investiture that is alive would be called a spren on Roshar. Looks like classic misdirection to me.
My (slightly) loony theory: Cusicesh the Protector is only a lower level of spren than the Nightwatcher and Stormfather as a result of the Recreance. Maybe a Bondsmith was bound to Cusicesh and broke the bond in such a way that left it in its current state.
Remember, the Stormfather initially was reluctant to bond with Dalinar (“I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!”) Cusicesh’s lack of mental faculties could be considered “death” by his fellow epic level spren. It could also lead to Cusicesh being considered as on a “lower level” than Nightwatcher and Stormfather (similar to the difference between shardblades of live spren like Syl, vs the shardblades of dead spren that non-Radiants carry in present day Roshar).
Finally, the other epic level spren all seem to be able to affect humans mentally. Nightwatcher’s boons seem to have some mental impact (Dalinar and Shshshsh, Av’s father seeing things upside down, etc); Stormfather can send visions; Cusicesh leaves a feeling of being “drained” by all who witness it.
(By the way, my (even loonier) theory: maybe the series of faces that Cusicesh shifts through at exactly 7:46 am has to do with (former or potential) Nahel Bond recipients. But that’s just based on a “wouldn’t it be cool” feeling)
ETA: And Wetlander@57 provides yet another example on why it’s generally a good idea for KiManiak to read all of the comments before producing theories. :-P Alice, thanks for clarifying that it’s third hand, so I’ll still allow for possible Brandon shennanigans or wordplay. However, my theory is not as strongly supported as I once thought it was.
Alright, now I have read the remaining comments!
Gepeto@38 – Yes, according to the Stormlight Archive Companion Szeth has been confirmed as an “incipient Skybreaker” and Renarin has been confirmed as an “incipient Truthwatcher.” If it’s confirmed that Team Sanderson authorized all of the text, then I guess I can relax my previously held skepticism (due to a lack of any objective proof) about Renarin and Glys being exactly what Renarin said they were. And Szeth is officially an incipient Skybreaker.
Braid_Tug@42 – I showed up at my indie bookstore 10 mins before it opened to make sure I received one. After calling the day before to confirm they had some in stock. And having a second indie bookstore miles away as a backup. I’d like to scan the Companion and send it to you to share with the Storm Cellar group, if Brandon/Peter say it’s alright to do so (assuming there are no copyright concerns).
Gepeto@46 – It appears to me that Brandon will answer the questions he wishes to answer, no matter the medium (signing, Reddit AMA, RAFOlympics, etc). I have been at a few readings/signings where he’s RAFO’d or sidestepped questions that seemed relatively innocent and answered others that were rather eye-opening. Just because you personally ask him something at a signing, doesn’t mean he’ll answer you.
AriadneAdler@52 – Welcome! Shardplate as a plant? Nice theory!
Wetlander@57 – Interesting bits of information and theorization there; thanks for that! On 17th Shard, Billy Todd summarized his conversation with Brandon as such:
I didn’t see anything from Billy’s post on 17S that specifically spelled out Cusicesh. It seems as though speculation/theorization about it can still range all over the place. Here’s hoping Oathbringer definitively spells out the relationship of all Bondsmiths and their spren.
Wet@59 – Even if it’s confirmed that the information in the Stormlight Archive Companion is canon, I still maintain that there is something special regarding Truthwatcher spren and its/their relationship to its/their Radiants. I think a lot of questions revolve around Glys…
@several re: rhythm and pattern of the epigraphs – Good eye (and ear)! I find it rather interesting, and a solid theory, given how important rhythm and patterns are in this series.
KiManiak @69 – I think my placement of Cusicesh on the hierarchy conflated something he said at the RAFOlympics with what Billy reported. He did flat out state (IIRC!) that Cusicesh is not a parallel with SF & NW. It was in the same general conversation about “sapient vs. sentient” and the part where he said Rosharans would probably call Adonalsium a “spren”.
@69: What does incipient means? I don’t understand the formulation…. The anthology talks about Renarin? I thought it only talked about Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Szeth and Eshonai…
How does Brandon decide which questions to answer? I figured at signings, even if he may not technically answer the question, he will actually say, huh, something?
@71: if Brandon doesn’t want to answer a question in person, I’ve heard him say:
RAFO = Read an find out
Or
That’s an interesting question.
It’s his call as the author what he’ll say.
Incipient = proto or early or entry level. Much like Kaladin in the first 2 parts of WoK before oaths were spoken.
Wet@70 – No problem; I know you got a lot of information that weekend and I am quite envious of you all!
I think the… confusion of what was actually said regarding “epic-level spren” (Stormfather, Nightwatcher and possibly Cusicesh) connects right back to the original transcribed comments that Marbelcal@34 supplied where Brandon admits he wriggled around a question that everyone thought he answered. Brandon did clearly state that Cusicesh is not currently on the same level as SF & NW; but that doesn’t mean that was the case back when there were 3 Bondsmiths pre-Recreance. That’s what my theory @68 proposes.
Anyway, it’s just a theory. Hopefully, Oathbringer tells us a lot about Bondsmiths.
Gepeto@71 – I agree with Braid Tug regarding “incipient” and Brandon’s methods of not answering questions he doesn’t want to answer.
As for the anthology, I assume you mean The Stormlight Archive Pocket Companion? It’s about 20-30 pgs, and talks about a lot of different topics. Now that I am at home and have it back in front of me I have access to more of the specifics. I don’t know what I’m allowed to say, so I’ll speak generally.
(Moderators: If this isn’t allowed, please feel free to delete the section below)
All-in-all, it’s a nice (slightly-larger-than) pocket-sized companion to the books that we enjoy discussing on this site. I really do hope digital copies can be made available, if that is allowed.
@several re: the Stormlight Archive Pocket Companion – I wouldn’t put any more stock in the Companion’s identification of Szeth as a Skybreaker than in Nale’s. It’s not like Tor is giving out any sneaky new information from Brandon here; they haven’t seen Oathbringer yet either. If you believe the implication in Chapter 88, that Szeth will be trained as a Skybreaker by Nalan, then this is nothing new. If you don’t buy the notion that a Herald (?) can simply grant a spren bond as he wishes, then this merely means that he is being called a Skybreaker by someone who doesn’t really have the authority to say so.
Personally, I’ll accept Szeth as a Knight Radiant when he shows up with a bonded spren. He and Helaran and anyone else can be called Skybreakers all they want, but until they can control the Surges (without an Honorblade), they aren’t Knights Radiant, and therefore they aren’t true Skybreakers.
Re: the Stormlight Archive Companion being treated as “canon” – I’ve been looking to see if Team Sanderson is supporting some of the still-debatable information (Szeth is definitely an incipient Skybreaker, Renarin is definitely an incipient Truthwatcher, statements regarding a certain spren) and haven’t seen anything from Team Sanderson that supports everything presented as fact.
After a few days to reflect on it and review the Companion a few times, I’m quite comfortable questioning the validity of anything in the Companion that is not explicitly spelled out in the books themselves. At least until Brandon tells us differently.
I know that I plan to continue to question whether Renarin really is a Truthwatcher until we get actual evidence that proves it, and not just the word of a potentially unreliable source. Once we have it confirmed by another spren, or Hoid, or even hear from Glys itself, then I will accept it as fact.
I like to start reading a series after it is tied up with a bow. Any idea how many books Sanderson is planning for this series?
It is planned as two 5-book series.
@76, 77 With 1 to 2 years between each book of the series and I think it’ll go on hiatus (of undetermined length?) between the two series.
skipper @76
Ten for the Stormlight Archive. Two sets of 5 separated (in-book) by several years. It’s probably safe to assume they will be published a minimum of 2 years apart, so you have a long wait before this series is tied up in a bow.
Edit: No, I didn’t refresh between reading comments and writing responses. Mea Culpa.
@77, 78, 79: Thanks for the info. The wait will be so long. It seems to be a trend, to write many books into a series. Anyway, these do sound good,
After the Diagram quote, I wonder if there is more than one Truthless. Nalan, maybe?